Deon
I appreciate your opinions too. Although I dissagree as well. And I apologize if I have said anything too harsh. I wonder if you read my last post?
You know the youth thing is just too far over rated. If the young folks actually had the experience and knowledge they think they do, well frankly they will likely catch up to their ego’s by the time they are in their late 30’s to mid-40’s.
Sure a young player or singer can be adequate, but to become really, really good takes a bit of time. This is I admit a general comment and not specific. I have worked with many hundred of studio musicians over my career and in the movie business, opera, country music and some R&R;, I found it interesting that most of the really good players, the ones who were called back time after time were in their mid to late 40’s at a minimum. The younger guys took too much time to stop over playing and “get” what we were doing, many of them would show up for a gig and by noon they were missing in action.
On the other hand I have had a 18 year old bass player who could play me under the table, so you might be that good, but it’s unlikely. Singers, especially bass singers seem to mature over 40, when their voices mature and the tenner of their voice make the transition from being a real bass and not a soon to be, maybe bass singer. Try as I will I just will never have the low gravely bass of J.D. Sumner’s or the quality sound and range of Gene McDonald, but I still sing in the studios, I make a good living and manage and sing with one of the better groups singing and ministering in California and the West.
It’s not that we don’t like or respect the kids that are up and coming, we just know where they are coming from, we were once there ourselves, and thought we knew everything too. Only in the distance of years is the truth reveled.
I raised four boys to become men, when they were in their teens their mother and I were stupid and didn’t know anything this year my oldest is 45 and to a man they all comment on how did we get so smart when they grew up, now they have kids and they are paying for their raising, I just laugh.
Hope you do not mind a Lady’s opinion. I wish we could pay for a band to back us up at our concerts, but we all cannot. It is not about having a live band. I want to hear some great vocals and see the anointing. Music is music, live or sound tracks. It is according to what you are going to the concert for. Sometimes I just close my eyes and listen to a song and worship the Lord. Sometimes a band can be distracting. I do not think that a band can make or break someone. It is all personal opinions on what you like.
I do not like the old Traditional Quartets. I find them boring, but I still place them on my radio station because I know that some of the listeners like them. I do not feel that not having a live band is hurting the Southern Gospel Genre. It is all the bad talent in the industry. I am a big fan of the unknown artist, but not bad talent. Recently I received 5 compilations and out of those I could only use songs from two compilations. A band is not the problem. It is plain and simple just like Nick says in his articles, company’s are taking peoples money no matter what the talent is. So I say give me great vocals. The music comes second place compare to that.
I’m no spring chicken at 41, but I think we could learn a lot from listening to these young people. They could eaisily be playing CCM or praise and worship. We have lost too many young musicians in SG because there is no place for them on the professional level.
There is not much room in SG studios either. Most tracks are cookie cutter. By that I mean they have about 4 or 5 piano players they choose from, 4 or 5 drummers, 4 or 5 bass, etc. Actually, its less than that when you get to the top level groups. Read your album credits.
Bassically, no disrespect intended, but based on samples I’ve heard, these young players that are posting here are in a whole other league musically than most here.
I agree that you should present the best you have. I personally believe tracks are a fine starting place for a local or regional group getting started and singing for love offerings. I believe any group that claims to be “professional” and charges admission should have a live band.
I remember years ago, there were some great groups with bands with piano, bass, and drums. They didn’t need wall to wall orchestration and stacks to present the music.
If you REALLY believe it is about the singing, then why not just have simple tracks with piano and bass? Why do the tracks have to be so elaborate?
If it is really about singing live, then why have stacks. They are not live.
How many times have we all heard professional singers talk about how stacks carried them on the choruses and that the only time they have to sing is on the solos? That, my friends is not singing. That is perpetrating a fraud on your audience.
I’m no spring chicken at 41, but I think we could learn a lot from listening to these young people. They could eaisily be playing CCM or praise and worship. We have lost too many young musicians in SG because there is no place for them on the professional level.
There is not much room in SG studios either. Most tracks are cookie cutter. By that I mean they have about 4 or 5 piano players they choose from, 4 or 5 drummers, 4 or 5 bass, etc. Actually, its less than that when you get to the top level groups. Read your album credits.
Bassically, no disrespect intended, but based on samples I’ve heard, these young players that are posting here are in a whole other league musically than most here.
I agree that you should present the best you have. I personally believe tracks are a fine starting place for a local or regional group getting started and singing for love offerings. I believe any group that claims to be “professional” and charges admission should have a live band.
I remember years ago, there were some great groups with bands with piano, bass, and drums. They didn’t need wall to wall orchestration and stacks to present the music.
If most tracks are cookie cutter, then so are most bands, after all, they are generally playing the same thing that is on the CD when they recorded the songs they are singing. As far as recording, if you read the credits on the CDs you will find that the musicians in every genre pretty much use the same instrumentalists for that genre. When I listen to Black Gospel, most of the musicians are the same for that genre on every CD, same with country. It’s the nature of the beast.
Well, there are some GREAT groups today who do not have live bands. Booth Bro, Gold City, KP & New River, Crossway, Dove Bros, Imperials, and the list could go on and on. Again, there is NOTHING wrong with any group having live musicians, just don’t tear down the ones who prefer to use tracks, for whatever reason. One of the major problems in this industry is that we try to make the people within the industry happy and never consider what the FANS want. The truth is that the fans don’t care. As long as you put on a great concert, the fans are happy. They don’t care if you have a live band, they don’t care if you have replaced your Lead singer, all they want is great music with a lot of excitement.
If you REALLY believe it is about the singing, then why not just have simple tracks with piano and bass? Why do the tracks have to be so elaborate?
If it is really about singing live, then why have stacks. They are not live.
How many times have we all heard professional singers talk about how stacks carried them on the choruses and that the only time they have to sing is on the solos? That, my friends is not singing. That is perpetrating a fraud on your audience.
Wow, those are easy questions, and I’m sure that you already know the answers. First of all, because we can. Secondly, because it sounds better. We can, because the cost of having those musicians is already paid for in the recording, so if it’s already there, common sense says go ahead and use it. I have always said that if I could win the lottery or had a rich uncle that I didn’t know about, leave me millions, then my group would use tracks and live musicians. That is the best of both worlds. That’s what the smart groups do today. Most of the time, the pianist or the drummer will start the click track and then both the live instruments and the tracks are playing, giving the fans as great a sound as they can.
I keep hearing these far out stories how singers are not even singing when they have stacks. That is a myth. I have heard of a singer or two who turned the stacks up a little to compensate for a cold or the flu, but they do not let the stacks do their jobs night after night. As we have seen in this discussion, live musicians have huge egos. Here’s a little secret, so do singers. Just like band members love to play, so do singers love to sing. I’m 59 years old, and I can count on one hand the number of groups that I have seen that happen with. With the technology that we have today, stacks can be added to tracks, and while there may be a group or two who misuse them, they are a minority. We use stacks on some songs, on others we do not. Very few people know the difference, and again, as long as it sounds good, the fans like it. Once again, it’s about the fans, not what the industry wants. If it doesn’t sound good, then why put more instruments and added vocals to your recordings?
[ Edited: 31 October 2007 11:04 AM by Deon Unthank]
Deon, I don’t believe I am “tearing down” anyone. At least that is not my intention. I just want to present a different opinion.
I agree we should listen to fans. A large percentage of “fans” on this board are in local/regional groups who use tracks. Of course they prefer tracks to a band or say it doesn’t make a difference.
I’ve carried numerous people to their first SG concerts over the years. Often it was a Frank Arnold concert or the Thanksgiving Singing in Florence or some other professional level venue. Without exemption, they all commented on how disappointed they were to see no live musicians.
To me, tracks and stacks have “leveled” the field. To the ears and eyes of the average SG listener, there is very little difference in bringing in a pro group versus a really good local/regional group. This shouldn’t be. Get you a good lead singer and polished tracks with thick stacks, get your stage presence down, buy a bus, some advertising, and a good radio promoter, and you are on the same stage with the best in the industry. The professional groups should raise the bar in every area including live music. If not, then let them stop complaining about not being able to consistently command a $2500 flat.
I’ve been to several musical events outside of SG venues over the past year. One thing I’ve noticed is the marked difference when a professional hits the stage. It is completely different atmosphere. At Big Springs Jam in Huntsville, they have 4 stages with country, rock, R&B;,and Christian. They have “regionals” or “up and coming” artists opening. From lighting, to sound quality, to presentation, in all genres the professionals stood out head and shoulders. That’s just not the case in SG.
We can use whatever excuse we want, but in my opinion, our professionals are not carrying the torch high enough. They don’t pack arenas, they don’t sell enough product, and they don’t attract enough new fans. That is nobodys fault other than professionals - professional groups and professional radio. Both need to raise the standard. When the professionals raise their bar, the regional groups trying to make it will be forced to do the same. Locals will raise theirs or continue to limit themselves.
Right now the bar is set so low in SG that every group with a PA system, matching suits, and a laptop to play tracks thinks they can make it big. Lots of them are right. Sad commentary on the state of our industry.
I have a question. Lucas said that if he asked someone at his college to come to hear a Southern Gospel group, good luck, but if he asked someone to come hear a band, then watch out. So, that’s got me wondering.
First is it a matter of semantics? If he said, would you like to go hear some great Gospel music, would he get a different response? Secondly, when he would say, do you want to go hear a band, would they be expecting to see a real band, or just three instruments? When I think of a band, I think of five or six instruments. When I think of a band, I think of the guys playing the instruments also doing the singing.
Back in the 60s and 70s, when groups had a band, they had a pianist, lead guitar, bass guitar, rhythm guitar, drums, and a keyboard player, or organ player. Sometimes they would even have a harmonica. Now those were bands.
So, here’s my question. Are we not short changing fans when we say that a group has a band and only has two or three instruments?
If we ask someone to come hear a band, are we misrepresenting what they are coming to hear?
If you REALLY believe it is about the singing, then why not just have simple tracks with piano and bass? Why do the tracks have to be so elaborate?
If it is really about singing live, then why have stacks. They are not live.
How many times have we all heard professional singers talk about how stacks carried them on the choruses and that the only time they have to sing is on the solos? That, my friends is not singing. That is perpetrating a fraud on your audience.
Wow, those are easy questions, and I’m sure that you already know the answers. First of all, because we can.
Lots of folks around here call our music just that: CANNED music
Deon Unthank - 31 October 2007 11:00 AM
I keep hearing these far out stories how singers are not even singing when they have stacks. That is a myth.
I have personally shared the stage with two well know groups who only lipped their parts on choruses. They were not sick. One group did that every show to “save their voices” for solos so they could hold up to 200+ dates per year. The other trio had one member who could not sing harmony. On thier old projects, he always took the lead on the choruses. They did a new project and hired a male to sing his harmony parts in the studio. I was standing at the sound board when they muted his mic for the singing and un muted it for his emcee work.
Deon,
You seem to show your ignorance on the band issue here. By simply stating that, “Secondly, when he would say, do you want to go hear a band, would they be expecting to see a real band, or just three instruments? When I think of a band, I think of five or six instruments.” You have to look broader. I know you might not appreciate some of these bands but 3 piece bands historically speaking have helped changed the face of music. Buddy Holly and the Crickets, Johnny Cash and the Tennessee 3, The Police, Nirvana, Nickel Creek, and countless others. Whether you agree with these bands message is besides the point. They have all changed music, shaped it, and brought it to what is is today. To reach the common man, or the common person, even a gospel music fan, you have got to see what has historically shaped music. Whether it is in rock, country, Christian, bluegrasses, gospel and anything! You say you are a progressive in the industry, for that I commend you. This industry unlike many other music genres values the tradition, and culture of older people. I think it does better at respect, and for that I commend it. This is one of the few conversations I have seen where that went sour.
But I think you are missing the value of young people, live bands, and even 3 piece live bands in this industry. The movers and shakers of music in the past 200 years have all been people under 30 years old. They “progress” music if you will, more than any other age group. That is just a fact friend. I would even go as far as to say in the past 100 years 75% of the advances in music have been young people. You are right, the majority of the best session players in town, are all around 40 years old. They have learned to perfect their craft, and just learn the music. But to progress the industry, to drive it, you need the creativity of the young person, and perhaps the skill of the older. The funny thing about any business including the gospel music business, is that in order to keep it alive, you must evolve it for the younger listener. Because the customers or “fans” of today will not always be there buying records going to concerts, or what not. You need from a business perspective “new clients” too. You are right we cannot leave the “clients” we have in the cold now. But a music industry must be progressed, driven, and be ever changing. And if we look historically what has driven music, it has been young people. Now you gotta look broader on this Deon. You can’t just focus on what is going on in your industry. That will make a business stale. You must look at what has made other “businesses” successful. These are business principles from Business 101 friend.
Also you said some interesting things…
“We use stacks on some songs, on others we do not. Very few people know the difference, and again, as long as it sounds good, the fans like it. Once again, it’s about the fans, not what the industry wants.”
“Are we not short changing fans when we say that a group has a band and only has two or three instruments?
If we ask someone to come hear a band, are we misrepresenting what they are coming to hear?”
Friend if you are lip-syncing that is short changing fans. Very many people do not know the difference you are right about that. But I know tons of people in every industry who do it. And you know what sometimes those people get found out. And fans turn on them, they feel short changed. Now even though the common fan doesn’t know it, that doesn’t mean they would like that. And that to me is short changing anyone who pays money for a show. Thus Business Ethics 101.. And there you go with the 3 piece argument. I don’t think you have a leg to stand on with that argument. I and millions of people today would give an arm literally to see some “3 piece band” that has changed music, “progressed” it! I have shone you facts here. Now if you think these facts are going off the deep end, well I don’t know what to do.
If you REALLY believe it is about the singing, then why not just have simple tracks with piano and bass? Why do the tracks have to be so elaborate?
If it is really about singing live, then why have stacks. They are not live.
How many times have we all heard professional singers talk about how stacks carried them on the choruses and that the only time they have to sing is on the solos? That, my friends is not singing. That is perpetrating a fraud on your audience.
Wow, those are easy questions, and I’m sure that you already know the answers. First of all, because we can.
Lots of folks around here call our music just that: CANNED music
Deon Unthank - 31 October 2007 11:00 AM
I keep hearing these far out stories how singers are not even singing when they have stacks. That is a myth.
I have personally shared the stage with two well know groups who only lipped their parts on choruses. They were not sick. One group did that every show to “save their voices” for solos so they could hold up to 200+ dates per year. The other trio had one member who could not sing harmony. On thier old projects, he always took the lead on the choruses. They did a new project and hired a male to sing his harmony parts in the studio. I was standing at the sound board when they muted his mic for the singing and un muted it for his emcee work.
Yeah, calling it canned music is just plain disrespectful.
Well, unless I knew all the circumstances on those stories, I don’t think I can tell why they did it. It certainly isn’t the norm. Come on, you know that these thing just don’t happen on a regular basis. You’re a singer. You know that given a chance to sing, unless there is a physical problem, a singer is going to be out there singing his heart out.
Let me ask you, how many musicians have you seen just acting like they are playing, maybe sore fingers.
If singers do it, I’d bet that musicians do it too.
The fact is that singers and musicians love to sing and play, and they aren’t out there trying to find ways of getting out of singing or playing. It just ain’t happening.
I agree, Deon, that it is not the norm. Most singers do sing. Its not a myth though that some don’t. I know of groups who have used a pre-recorded vocal in an unusual circumstance and told their audience. To me that is acceptable and not fradulent. For those 2 groups I mentioned, frauding their fans is the norm.
Deon, I know you love SG. It has always been my favorite style of music. I remember when I went to my first concerts in the 70s and saw groups like the Segos, Hinsons, Kingsmen, and lots of others and how awestruck I was. Mom also carried us to county concerts and the gospel events had just as good a “show” as the country ones. It’s evident we haven’t kept up.
My son is turning into a really good guitar player. It saddens me to know that as good as he is and as much as he loves God, there is not a place for him in a professional SG group.
For everyone that says they like to see a live band at concerts, there is a person who does not mind if a person sings by soundtracks. So this is not going to convince either side to agree with each other. My main thing is, a group or soloist not using a band is NOT what is causing problems with the southern gospel genre. It is the talent in whole that is causing the problem. As Deon said, there are musicians that are pretending they are playing instrument and they may not be. I Guess I could buy a lot of intstruments to take with me to concerts and I probably could find people that comes to the concert to agree to act like they are playing the instruments. Ha!
FamilyMan; I agree with Deon, you likely already know the answers, I’m gonna give you my $0.02
You wrote…“If you REALLY believe it is about the singing, then why not just have simple tracks with piano and bass? Why do the tracks have to be so elaborate? There are some singers and groups who hide or try to hide vocal problems in over orchestrated tracks with deep vocal stacks. That’s why we sing with only a piano to accompany us. What you see and hear from us is what you get. We have received criticism, because we do SGM so simply and without tracks. I just think that’s their problem, certainty not ours.
If it is really about singing live, then why have stacks. They are not live. That’s why we sing with only a piano to accompany us.
How many times have we all heard professional singers talk about how stacks carried them on the choruses and that the only time they have to sing is on the solos? Actually, I never heard groups say that, but it could be true.” That, my friends is not singing. That is perpetrating a fraud on your audience. That’s why we sing with only a piano to accompany us.
Are you getting the idea? That’s why we sing with only a piano to accompany us. Not every group singing is relying on tracks, vocal stacks, and all the other things, while we are at it… what about electronic vocal correction? Is that for the marginal singer who just can’t stay on key, or are the pros using it?
