You wrote…“I think everything that has been mentioned on this thread and others has played a part in the SGM slide.
If we can improve the quality of our performers, [David, with respect… we in SGM have some of the better singing voices in any genera ]
improve the quality of our music, [I’m not sure how to respond to that, most groups do pretty well, I know that there are some real duds, but that’s so in any genera, just look no further from SGM than to Country music to see the good, the bad, and the down right awful.]
improve the quality of our performances, [I think some groups today have improved their stage presentations, not all groups stand in one position and some actually move around the stage, I don’t think we all need to be a Garth Brooks, swinging from a rope to be interesting, but it worked for him, and it might be fun.]
improve the quality of the marketing, [Now on this comment, I have to say AMEN! We clearly are not marketing SGM well at all to the general public or the churched public as well. I think we could all learn a lot from studying what Bill Gaither does and doesn’t do. We do have to consider “scale” when we compare our efforts and what Mr. Gaither and his machine does, but there is still a lot to learn.
and improve the quality of the broadcasters, [Broadcasters, SGM Radio, what the heck is that? We don’t have any. I have to say that most of the “internet radio” and XM’s programming I do hear is pretty awful, and it’s also pretty tough when you have a group like EVIDENCE who does the “OLD STYLE” SGM, and we do it well… however programming for that is tough or so my friends in radio have told me. Somehow I feel that we need to come at the problem from a different direction, we’ve been doing it like it was done years ago, and today it just ain’t working, maybe we need to come at the promotion and radio problem from another direction.]
perhaps we can reverse the trend.” Or, Maybe we can set a new trend in Christian music radio.]
Dave, please don’t take my comments personally, I’m just commenting on some very good observations and from me often comes miscellaneous ramblings from a totally demented mind. Many will agree on that point anyway.
I just love threads like this. Sitting here with a new laptop and a broken toe, I actually have time to reply.
I haven’t read all the posts and some of the ones I have read get into some aspects that are really beyond me. You can talk an issue to death, but the question is what are you going to do to change it.
In our area (Dallas-Fort Worth) there is almost no SG music being played. One station plays one to 2 hours on a Sat morning (we have gotten up early and done that show) another station plays it at night and on Sat (we have done that one as well). Both are AM stations that trend toward using SG as a filler for when they don’t have a paid religious spot or a paid program. An FM station does play SG on Sunday afternoons, and the dj is a professional and most of the time picks good quality music in all the different styles. We have gone to East Texas and heard some really awful stuff on some of the stations there.
While radio can (and needs to) be more selective in the quality they play, the problem is with the numerous groups or soloists who are out there putting out the stuff that isn’t worth listening to. Each person reading this message board determines what sounds good and what doesn’t, regardless of basic objective standards we each try to set. Where we as fans of the music (whether you are a group or soloist or neither one) fall short is being actively involved. We would rather sit and complain about it and don’t let the station managers know what we think of “Joe and his one chord guitar playing, off-key singing”.
The fact is we should be policing ourselves at the local/regional level first. We don’t have to be hateful and tell someone they are bad, but we can start by setting the standard and the example and in doing that keep control over who we support. Don’t book a date with a group that isn’t good just because you need a date. Set your own standard-where do you want to be, who do you want to reach?
Part of our problem in reaching the masses is something Deon pointed out, we have become church driven. Churches are essential and part of what we are to be doing is encouraging those who already know Jesus. But, how many groups at this level are trying to reach people who don’t know Jesus? We need to be combining these things and giving them equal weight. It is a well-known fact that the secular world isn’t going to give us the opportunities, so we need to create them, but do it with a standard in place-whatever your standard is.
I have been able to put together a few events using top quality groups in this area and they have turned out well. But it still takes time. The fact is we all want quick fixes, and there are none. There will always be unscrupulous people working in our industry as well as the secular world. They are out there because we as individuals or an industry have taken our eyes off of the prize. We see the success of Ernie Haase or Bill Gaither and we want that too. So there are many who are blinded by that who are willing to pay the first person to come along who offers to help them get there. What if that same amount of money was spent to promote their ministry starting in their area and building it and growing it out from there? The same thing is still possible, it just takes a little longer. But guess what? They have planted the seed for SG in the area and gained recognition for themselves and the music, but most importantly for the message. Nick Bruno has been saying this for a long time and he is right. When we start asking questions before we spend the money we can be more effective in spreading SG.
The fact is that radio is important, but in cleaning up that mess (if it is possible) we also need to be embracing the future. New sounds and new technologies. That does not mean throwing the baby out with the bath water. What Jim and Evidence are doing in Southern California is unique and hard work. I applaud them for sticking to their guns and staying true to their calling. Each of us in our own way is called to do this in various forms. I can’t sing a lick, but I can hear a bad note a mile away. I handle the administrative stuff, and run the sound board. When I did sing in church, several came up and said that they liked to hear me sing, but I knew it wasn’t good, and now the only place I sing is in my head and in my car. I am most critical of our guys, despite what some around here think. But that is because we have a standard that we invoke behind the scenes and publicly.
So while we can talk about all the things wrong with radio, radio trackers, and all those other aspects of our industry; the reality is that change starts with us at this level. If we set the standard, set the example, and stop settling for less than our own best (and less than the best in our areas) we can change what is presented at the top, but that will only be over time. We also need to be responsible with the money provided by the people in the churches and events we do. Those who give, whether it is a love offering or a ticket price, believe they are supporting a ministry and have an expectation that the money will be spent wisely. That means be responsible in what you do with it, ask the right questions of the various industry people who approach you. They are asking for your money, so don’t be afraid to ask. Learn what to ask. Sometimes we have to learn thru bad experiences, but learn from them, don’t repeat them.
wrote: Dave, please don’t take my comments personally, I’m just commenting on some very good observations and from me often comes miscellaneous ramblings from a totally demented mind. Many will agree on that point anyway.
Ah, my friend, I always enjoy reading your posts, and I love a good discussion. Please allow me to clarify though… I didn’t mean to give the impression that I thought our artists, music, and genre were substandard. I apologize to anyone who may have read my remarks that way. I just think that no matter how good we are, we can always improve.
I do agree with you that we have some of the best vocal performances of any genre. My fear is that we will fall into a “cookie cutter” trap as Country music has where every song and artist sounds the same. One of my favorite things about our genre is the originality of it.
Ok, my eyes started hurting after a reading a couple of pages, so bare with me if I’m repeating someone here. Here is my opinion. I use to love SG that is all I would listen to can’t explain how or why but about 4 years ago SG became bland to me;
It’s funny you should say this, I have felt the same way. I loved listening to SG from about 1999 through 2002 (with a break for about a year because I was a teenager and my parents thought me and my brothers were listening too much). Then, for some reason, starting at the spring of 2003, it seemed that the music lost its power. It even got to the point in 2003-04 that SG radio just about put me to sleep.I think there are two primary reasons for this:
1. Several great artists retired or broke. These included the Bishops, Perry Sisters, and Tony Gore and Majesty, and Kirk Talley, and there wasn’t really anyone to replace them at their level (though the Bishops quit a little earlier).
2.More importantly, several major artists stopped doing the same quality of music they had previously recorded. The best example is probably the Talley Trio. They went from stirring songs like “Testify” and “The Answer is Christ” to songs like “Jesus Saves” and “I Love the Lord”, which are both bland IMO. The Perries started doing songs like “I wish I could have been there” and “His Name Was John”, which IMHO are either tuneless, don’t have much point, or both. And the Hoskins Family went from “Safe Thus Far”, a stirring and powerful ballad, to songs like “Places to Go, People to See”, which are week songs IMO. Other groups did songs that weren’t quite as well structured, like “Jerusalem” by the Hoppers, compared with “Marriage Supper of the Lamb”.
That’s my assessment. I don’t mean to insult anyone.
Ok, my eyes started hurting after a reading a couple of pages, so bare with me if I’m repeating someone here. Here is my opinion. I use to love SG that is all I would listen to can’t explain how or why but about 4 years ago SG became bland to me;
It’s funny you should say this, I have felt the same way. I loved listening to SG from about 1999 through 2002 (with a break for about a year because I was a teenager and my parents thought me and my brothers were listening too much). Then, for some reason, starting at the spring of 2003, it seemed that the music lost its power. It even got to the point in 2003-04 that SG radio just about put me to sleep.I think there are two primary reasons for this:
1. Several great artists retired or broke. These included the Bishops, Perry Sisters, and Tony Gore and Majesty, and Kirk Talley, and there wasn’t really anyone to replace them at their level (though the Bishops quit a little earlier).
2.More importantly, several major artists stopped doing the same quality of music they had previously recorded. The best example is probably the Talley Trio. They went from stirring songs like “Testify” and “The Answer is Christ” to songs like “Jesus Saves” and “I Love the Lord”, which are both bland IMO. The Perries started doing songs like “I wish I could have been there” and “His Name Was John”, which IMHO are either tuneless, don’t have much point, or both. And the Hoskins Family went from “Safe Thus Far”, a stirring and powerful ballad, to songs like “Places to Go, People to See”, which are week songs IMO. Other groups did songs that weren’t quite as well structured, like “Jerusalem” by the Hoppers, compared with “Marriage Supper of the Lamb”.
That’s my assessment. I don’t mean to insult anyone.
Wow, you really think that songs as powerful as “Jesus Saves” and “I Love The Lord” are bland? We must have heard two different versions, because thosed two songs are far from bland. “Jerusalem” nearly brought me out of my chair every time I heard it.
You seem to have missed a ton of A-level artists that have been producing great music all through 2003, 2004, and even to now. Just a few of the great songs from 2003 & 2004 would include, but not limited to, “It’s True” - Ivan Parker, “The Walk” - Crabb Family, “But For The Blood” - the Hoppers, “Even In The Valley” - the Whisnants, “Jesus Saves” - the Talleys, “Jerusalem” - the Hoppers, “The Promise” - the Martins, “I Wish I Could Have Been There” - the Perrys, “His Life For Mine” - the Talleys, “If It Had Not Been For The Lord” - the McRaes, and “That’s Why They Call It Grace” - Karen Peck and New River. That’s just a sample of the great music that was in those two years.
I guess I’m just not sure what people are looking for when they say that the quality of SGM has declined. Our songwriters like Rebecca Peck, Diane Wilkerson, Jim Brady, Daryl Williams and the like are still writing powerful songs.
Ok, my eyes started hurting after a reading a couple of pages, so bare with me if I’m repeating someone here. Here is my opinion. I use to love SG that is all I would listen to can’t explain how or why but about 4 years ago SG became bland to me;
It’s funny you should say this, I have felt the same way. I loved listening to SG from about 1999 through 2002 (with a break for about a year because I was a teenager and my parents thought me and my brothers were listening too much). Then, for some reason, starting at the spring of 2003, it seemed that the music lost its power. It even got to the point in 2003-04 that SG radio just about put me to sleep.I think there are two primary reasons for this:
1. Several great artists retired or broke. These included the Bishops, Perry Sisters, and Tony Gore and Majesty, and Kirk Talley, and there wasn’t really anyone to replace them at their level (though the Bishops quit a little earlier).
2.More importantly, several major artists stopped doing the same quality of music they had previously recorded. The best example is probably the Talley Trio. They went from stirring songs like “Testify” and “The Answer is Christ” to songs like “Jesus Saves” and “I Love the Lord”, which are both bland IMO. The Perries started doing songs like “I wish I could have been there” and “His Name Was John”, which IMHO are either tuneless, don’t have much point, or both. And the Hoskins Family went from “Safe Thus Far”, a stirring and powerful ballad, to songs like “Places to Go, People to See”, which are week songs IMO. Other groups did songs that weren’t quite as well structured, like “Jerusalem” by the Hoppers, compared with “Marriage Supper of the Lamb”.
That’s my assessment. I don’t mean to insult anyone.
Wow, you really think that songs as powerful as “Jesus Saves” and “I Love The Lord” are bland? We must have heard two different versions, because thosed two songs are far from bland. “Jerusalem” nearly brought me out of my chair every time I heard it.
You seem to have missed a ton of A-level artists that have been producing great music all through 2003, 2004, and even to now. Just a few of the great songs from 2003 & 2004 would include, but not limited to, “It’s True” - Ivan Parker, “The Walk” - Crabb Family, “But For The Blood” - the Hoppers, “Even In The Valley” - the Whisnants, “Jesus Saves” - the Talleys, “Jerusalem” - the Hoppers, “The Promise” - the Martins, “I Wish I Could Have Been There” - the Perrys, “His Life For Mine” - the Talleys, “If It Had Not Been For The Lord” - the McRaes, and “That’s Why They Call It Grace” - Karen Peck and New River. That’s just a sample of the great music that was in those two years.
I guess I’m just not sure what people are looking for when they say that the quality of SGM has declined. Our songwriters like Rebecca Peck, Diane Wilkerson, Jim Brady, Daryl Williams and the like are still writing powerful songs.
Oooops, Chris was here and logged on my computer sorry, this was my post.
“Jerusalem†nearly brought me out of my chair every time I heard it.
All I can add to that is Amen! When Connie, Kim, Dean and Claude start out it is a blessing from the first phrase, when Mike starts in on the drums, it is a total musically worshipful experience. Anyone who isn’t moved by this piece of music is truly dead in the head! How can you not be moved by good gospel music?
I know there are some, maybe even more than a few groups out there that are asleep at the switch and generate as much enthusiasm as a toothache, and from what I hear some of the national groups have become passive in their approach to SGM, abandoning the songs and music which has served them we for years. We need to go back to a time where what they did worked, and gave the Holy Spirit a chance to come down and move things right along.
I have to set aside time to smile, a few years ago I was accused of being too critical of the singers and groups in SGM, now everyone is doing it, and with just cause in many cases. There are groups [local, regional and even national] I wouldn’t walk across the street to see and hear, and there are groups who really are enjoyable and a study in how I feel SGM should be done. SGM, if done correctly is enjoyable for the Mind, Spirit and Body, it has the timeless message of Jesus Christ and all He and His Father offers us. How can that be boring? Better check your pulse, just to make sure you aren’t dead… in the Spirit.
I will be the first to agree that personal tastes can change, because of many factors. I personally rotate between SGM, classic rock, CCM, and Inspo, and classical just to make sure I don’t burn out on just one, I also tune into a little talk radio from time to time, after “three hours, everyday, it’s all Sean asksâ€... I’, really ready for some good music.
Just a reminder… “boring isn’t what you are, it what you do.†When you do, you are alive.
Wow, you really think that songs as powerful as “Jesus Saves” and “I Love The Lord” are bland? We must have heard two different versions, because thosed two songs are far from bland. “Jerusalem” nearly brought me out of my chair every time I heard it.
You seem to have missed a ton of A-level artists that have been producing great music all through 2003, 2004, and even to now. Just a few of the great songs from 2003 & 2004 would include, but not limited to, “It’s True” - Ivan Parker, “The Walk” - Crabb Family, “But For The Blood” - the Hoppers, “Even In The Valley” - the Whisnants, “Jesus Saves” - the Talleys, “Jerusalem” - the Hoppers, “The Promise” - the Martins, “I Wish I Could Have Been There” - the Perrys, “His Life For Mine” - the Talleys, “If It Had Not Been For The Lord” - the McRaes, and “That’s Why They Call It Grace” - Karen Peck and New River. That’s just a sample of the great music that was in those two years.
I guess I’m just not sure what people are looking for when they say that the quality of SGM has declined. Our songwriters like Rebecca Peck, Diane Wilkerson, Jim Brady, Daryl Williams and the like are still writing powerful songs.
I agree. IMHO the top groups, such as those mentioned, are making some of the best SGM ever released.
Ok, my eyes started hurting after a reading a couple of pages, so bare with me if I’m repeating someone here. Here is my opinion. I use to love SG that is all I would listen to can’t explain how or why but about 4 years ago SG became bland to me;
It’s funny you should say this, I have felt the same way. I loved listening to SG from about 1999 through 2002 (with a break for about a year because I was a teenager and my parents thought me and my brothers were listening too much). Then, for some reason, starting at the spring of 2003, it seemed that the music lost its power. It even got to the point in 2003-04 that SG radio just about put me to sleep.I think there are two primary reasons for this:
1. Several great artists retired or broke. These included the Bishops, Perry Sisters, and Tony Gore and Majesty, and Kirk Talley, and there wasn’t really anyone to replace them at their level (though the Bishops quit a little earlier).
2.More importantly, several major artists stopped doing the same quality of music they had previously recorded. The best example is probably the Talley Trio. They went from stirring songs like “Testify” and “The Answer is Christ” to songs like “Jesus Saves” and “I Love the Lord”, which are both bland IMO. The Perries started doing songs like “I wish I could have been there” and “His Name Was John”, which IMHO are either tuneless, don’t have much point, or both. And the Hoskins Family went from “Safe Thus Far”, a stirring and powerful ballad, to songs like “Places to Go, People to See”, which are week songs IMO. Other groups did songs that weren’t quite as well structured, like “Jerusalem” by the Hoppers, compared with “Marriage Supper of the Lamb”.
That’s my assessment. I don’t mean to insult anyone.
Wow, you really think that songs as powerful as “Jesus Saves” and “I Love The Lord” are bland? We must have heard two different versions, because thosed two songs are far from bland. “Jerusalem” nearly brought me out of my chair every time I heard it.
You seem to have missed a ton of A-level artists that have been producing great music all through 2003, 2004, and even to now. Just a few of the great songs from 2003 & 2004 would include, but not limited to, “It’s True” - Ivan Parker, “The Walk” - Crabb Family, “But For The Blood” - the Hoppers, “Even In The Valley” - the Whisnants, “Jesus Saves” - the Talleys, “Jerusalem” - the Hoppers, “The Promise” - the Martins, “I Wish I Could Have Been There” - the Perrys, “His Life For Mine” - the Talleys, “If It Had Not Been For The Lord” - the McRaes, and “That’s Why They Call It Grace” - Karen Peck and New River. That’s just a sample of the great music that was in those two years.
I guess I’m just not sure what people are looking for when they say that the quality of SGM has declined. Our songwriters like Rebecca Peck, Diane Wilkerson, Jim Brady, Daryl Williams and the like are still writing powerful songs.
First of all, let me ad that I sincerely hope no artists or anyone else is offended by my strong language, I just can’t really think of any other way to make the same point. There were a number of songs in 2003 that really ministered to me, e.g. “He is to Me” by Greater Vision, “The Promise” by the Martins, and “We Need to Thank God” by the Inspirations, which I think was from 2003. And “Greater is He” by the Crabbs is one of the most awesome and fun SG songs I’ve every heard. But to me, with a few exceptions, 2003 was the beginning of a downhill slide. Some artists were unenthusiastic, while others did songs that were either corny or shallow, in my humble opinion. And then you had artists who simply rehashed old songs ( I like more originality). As for “Jerusalem”, I thought the chorus was great, but the verses were ditsy. The verses and chorus in that song didn’t seem to go together.
Here’s what I look for in SG songs (I’m not a songwriter, so my posting might be muddled).
(a) Strong lyrics-a song must have substantial lyrical content, with few or no repeated words (“I’m happy with you Lord, I’m happy with you Lord, I’m Happy with You Lord, are you happy with me” is an example of that problem). Also, more words per line is better. Finally, wordiness can hurt; there should be just the right number of words for the rhythm.
(b) Steady tempo- few or no drawn-out notes or pauses, or changes in tempo (“I Love the Lord” and “Oh Glorious Love” are examples of these). A song doesn’t have to be upbeat, but slow songs should have consistent and recognizable rhythms.
(c) Strong melody- a song should have a tune that is easily recognizable, and could be picked out on a piano with relative ease.
Finally, a song must have good instrumentation, and orchestration helps, especially with slow songs. Also, there are some songs that have some of the problems I listed, but they are so good in other areas, that the problems are canceled out.
I sure am glad we are just a part time group that goes and sings because of the love of singing and will sing to 2 or 1000. I am not trying to be smart here. I am just glad we do it solely for the ministry because we dont have to worry about making money. What I do appreciate, is we usually always are rebooked before we leave and the crowds do get bigger each time we go back. The only thing we try to do is realize in the church setting, you will have folks from 3 to 80. So we try and do a few songs that appeal to all. Seems to work. I really am not trying to say anything other than its nice that all we have to do is go sing and praise the lord. We work hard because we love what we do,and yes, we stive to be as good as we can. The man that produced our CD worked on Hovie Listers last project. Believe me,this was not a go in, just sing,and print. And we work hard to reproduce that sound on stage every time. But we mostly just let the spirit take us where we are to go and let people be blessed. We finished a singing last week,and while loading the trailer, saw three young guys(About 11-13 years of age) They had stood out by the church window the whole time because they were riding thier bikes by and herd the music. They were so excited. I asked if they wanted a CD and went to the trailer and gave them one each. They asked each to autograph them and were so excited. I dont know anything about the proffesional music buisness, but, I believe we made God happy that night and planted a seed.
It is very difficult to draw listeners from Christian AC/Inspo radio to the SG format. The two are light years apart. Even the groups that we in SG consider AC aren’t that close. The diction and harmony just don’t match up.
The SG music that I program has allowed us to cultivate a younger 35 - 45 yr old crowd without alienating the senior crowd. This is accomplished by playing music that is of the highest quality - zero tolerance for twang or poor sound quality regardless of who it is. We are not afraid of the electric guitar and realize that it takes more than just great vocals to draw a crowd. The music is important and lackluster cookie cutter tracks don’t make it.
We also pay attention to the tempo of the music that is played. We are up tempo 3/4 of the time. Radio can’t afford to put people to sleep at the wheel. The younger audience appreciates this.
When I go to concerts I see a great age mix. We are attracting younger people and the older crowd is still there as well.
Sometimes its not what we play - its what we don’t play.
Tim,
You are so right. I have been saying for years that we waste our time worrying about trying to influence the CCM crowd. We are trying to mix water and oil with the two. It’s never going to happen.
We do have a huge Country audience that has tons of young people in it, who would love good SGM if they heard it. Same chord structures, same vowels, the harmony, just a lot of things alike, but we still sit around and argue why we can’t draw the young people from the CCM crowd.
You are also very right about the music you play. People like upbeat material for the most part when they are listening to radio. The also like quality. There is a ton of quality to be played, yet I still hear questionable music played even on some of our big named stations.
You’re both right. We aren’t going to appeal to young people who are really into CCM. They are looking for something different just as we (Deon, you and I, not tim) did when we were their age and southern gospel as we know it was just beginning or getting a real foothold. It has taken me all these years to admit that the southern gospel I grew up on did not exist much before that. It was new and was accepted by a particular audience. Now I want EVERYONE to see that as the best music ever, but it isn’t going to happen on a large scale. The time has come and may largely have passed—unless, as you said, we try reaching the young country crowd. They will hear much of the same chords, patterns, structures, that they love in country, but the message will be be different.
It doesn’t matter how good the quality my local station plays—and it is top-notch—the young CCM crowd isn’t going to listen to it. They listen to the local CCM station. We have to stop whining about the age of our listeners and start looking at WHO we might appeal to.
I really think we could appeal to a younger crowd than we currently have, but I agree that the majority of the 12 to 25 crowd isn’t going to listen. Groups like Austins Bridge are doing a good job reaching a new audience. However, we can’t mix groups like Austins Bridge and the Martins with the Primitives or McKameys. We’ve got to specialize our stations and target an audience of listeners. We can’t have a one-size-fits-all station because we are just too broad. It is being done and just ain’t working.
I really think we could appeal to a younger crowd than we currently have, but I agree that the majority of the 12 to 25 crowd isn’t going to listen. Groups like Austins Bridge are doing a good job reaching a new audience. However, we can’t mix groups like Austins Bridge and the Martins with the Primitives or McKameys. We’ve got to specialize our stations and target an audience of listeners. We can’t have a one-size-fits-all station because we are just too broad. It is being done and just ain’t working.
I disagree. It is being done, it just isn’t being done on a large enough scale to make an impact. And it isn’t being done well. A good radio station that knows how to program, has good DJs can do it. Our problem is a lack of good stations and too many mom and pops that don’t put out a quality program.
Susan, Hold on to your hat! I AGREE WITH YOU TOTALLY.
Susan, you wrote… “Our problem is a lack of good stations and too many mom and pops that don’t put out a quality program.” I couldn’t agree more, too many folks in local or regional radio have no idea what they are going, with few exceptions.
We keep being to told that the main reason why we aren’t getting air play is that we are too traditional Southern Gospel
A record promoter told us that… “Jim, Do you mind if I just say “WoW!” You all do some really good traditional Southern Gospel singing. “I’m serious, I doubt there are many groups traveling that could hold a light to what you all do. There are few that can sing the real “old traditional” style, and you all do it so well.”
No matter how much acknowledgment we get, we know that we are not going to get air play. It is not what we are all about, but it would be nice for our music ministry to get a wider fan base. For anyone interested we have some new sound clips on our web site http://www.evidencemusicministry.com give us a listen sometime, I think you will find a variety in music styles too. I hope you enjoy
