FamilyMan - 24 November 2007 11:44 PM

For us to have talent that much superior to other genres, we sure don’t have listeners or fans.  Seems like if our vocalists were that great and our songs that awesome, we would attract a fan or two under 50.  We’ve got Emperors New Clothes syndrom.  Just keep tooting our own horns.  Ignore radio listenership, concert attendance, and album sales.  We are the best.  WE all know that!!!

I think I see your point.  It is as if we are a great big SGM club and we don’t understand why others don’t want to be in our club.  I think this point was originally made by Nick Bruno in one of his articles.

I do agree with Deon (don’t know how to do the double quote thing) a fan base we are not reaching is Christians that listen to country.  This may not have to do with chord structure and vocal stylings but partially a generational problem which is why CCM sells.  My daughter listens to country but can not stand SGM which is Dad’s music.

But a greater problem is that as she matures and can overcome the above stated issue our local SGM station is still being programed for a radio station in podunk nowhere instead of up beat well arranged well sang well promoted SGM with a good DJ in Dallas/Fort Worth.  That is where the SGM club manifests.  The same request, same corney jokes, the same local artist and not one ounce of marketability of SGM to new listeners.

As a 19 year old I’d like to pipe in here and say that there is a couple things you guys aren’t thinking of. Number one, most kids my age don’t listen to CCM either. Its called ‘Adult’ Contemperary for a reason. But even more importantly, kids my age don’t listen to the radio period. I live in a dorm room with 5 other guys, and we don’t have one radio in the whole dorm. We have our computers and our iPods, and thats all we need. In our cars we have decks for our iPods, or at least a CD player. I just drove 15 hours from home to school after thanksgiving break, and I didn’t touch the radio dial once. I had my CDs.

Most kids also don’t think in terms of style. They listen to what sounds good. In fact a lot of people my age don’t even think in terms of albums. They download the song they like, and thats it. And the vast majority of that downloading is illegal. Also, SG artists need to get on the ball and get on iTunes. There are about 5 SG CD’s I wanted to buy in the past couple months, but didn’t because they weren’t on iTunes.

So, how will SG reach my generation? I don’t think we’ll ever get the everyday teenager and young adult to listen to SG. But we can get the nerds. Last year I took some of my friends who were in choir with me to a SSQ concert, and they absolutely loved it. We need to get the kids who are in choir, who love vocal harmony, and who will appreciate SG for that. I have posted this idea before, but I think we should have choir arrangments done of classic SG songs, and then send it to choir teachers as an example of traditional American music. Then have a note at the beginning of the arrangement saying that are Southern Gospel, and maybe have a website where they can go, and launch off into the wonderful world of SG.

So basically, I say ditch radio and try to win over the choir nerds. And get on iTunes. Or at least sell mp3’s from the artist’s website. And give a couple mp3’s away on the site too, just to get people intrested. Those are my thoughts.

Very good points Micah.

Micah;

What you said is true, I want to thank you for your thoughts, ideas and keen observations for getting the kids of today “choir nerds” and / or more.  The close harmony and song pacing and tempo can reach the kids I’ve seen it when we invited our local college “music geeks” to one of our concerts in our local church, the first time two students came and the next concert we had 19 show up, and these young people will be the choir and music leaders of the future.

Thanks again.

Deon Unthank - 25 November 2007 12:18 AM

#2 - We STILL are trying to get our younger fans from CCM instead of Country.
Country has forever been called our cousin. They already like our chord structure, harmonies, and vocals. Why are we so determined to go after an audience that will never like what we are doing. It would be like the Country artists trying to get Rock fans to listen to their product. It just ain’t going to happen.

We do have some of the best vocals in any genre.

If we’re going to draw from country fans, we’re going to have to do some of the things that works for them.  I won’t start this arguement again, but country fans are not going to easily embrace 3 or 4 singers and a CD player.  They’d rather it be live and slightly flawed than recorded and perfect.  The mindset is totally different.

We have a monthly songwriters night in Huntsville that draws about 300 at $10 to $100 a ticket.  Four songwriters sit on stage and sing one of their songs in turn accompanied by acoustic guitar only.  Sometimes they hava a keyboard.  People respect the talent and creativity, not perfection.

On the other hand, I’ve been to SG concerts in that same area where a pro group came in for a love offering and drew less than 200.  We’re going to have to change our mindset completely.  What we are doing is not working.

Micah,
Some good thoughts, except for the part about “ditching radio.”

SG music needs radio…maybe more than any other genre of music. Ditching radio to get younger people interested would basically kill off SG music, because if it’s true that the typical SG listener is 50 or over (I say that’s not true…I think it’s more like 40 and over, but I digress…), those people are not so tuned in to the technology you mentioned. They DO listen to the radio, every day, and “ditching radio” would be a fatal blow, in my opinion.

I do like the part about getting the nerds, though!

Mike

Just to clarify, my idea to ‘ditch radio’ is total hyperbole, and I didn’t actually mean it in a literal sense, only in the sense that we need to ditch the idea that radio will bring in the younger crowd.

FamilyMan - 25 November 2007 03:15 PM

Deon Unthank - 25 November 2007 12:18 AM

#2 - We STILL are trying to get our younger fans from CCM instead of Country.
Country has forever been called our cousin. They already like our chord structure, harmonies, and vocals. Why are we so determined to go after an audience that will never like what we are doing. It would be like the Country artists trying to get Rock fans to listen to their product. It just ain’t going to happen.

We do have some of the best vocals in any genre.

If we’re going to draw from country fans, we’re going to have to do some of the things that works for them.  I won’t start this arguement again, but country fans are not going to easily embrace 3 or 4 singers and a CD player.  They’d rather it be live and slightly flawed than recorded and perfect.  The mindset is totally different.

We have a monthly songwriters night in Huntsville that draws about 300 at $10 to $100 a ticket.  Four songwriters sit on stage and sing one of their songs in turn accompanied by acoustic guitar only.  Sometimes they hava a keyboard.  People respect the talent and creativity, not perfection.

On the other hand, I’ve been to SG concerts in that same area where a pro group came in for a love offering and drew less than 200.  We’re going to have to change our mindset completely.  What we are doing is not working.

I wish we could have a conversation that didn’t involve you bringing up that people aren’t listening because of a lack of “bands.”

Last time I checked - even those groups with bands weren’t packing out the houses either.

Chris….my point is…

A songwriter with an acoustic is drawing more fans than our largest groups. 

Anyone affiliated with your group will argue that bands aren’t an issue because you don’t have one.  The reason most polls on this board indicate that it doesn’t matter is that (1) you have primarily avid fans who will listen regardless and have gotten conditioned to accept our standards of perfomance and (2) you have tons of local and regional group members who use tracks.

Bottom line is that we have lost our credibility in musical circles.  Back when it was common for top southern groups to share the stages with the top country acts, we had credibility.  That was back when we had four singers and a piano.  Now we’ve got 24 instruments and 40 voices coming from an MP3 player, but we are not respected by the other genres.

Our influence is dwindling and will continue to do so until someone gets their heads out of the sand and examines all the possibilities that are causing the decline.

My group has nothing to do with this conversation.  Everybody knows that we don’t have a band.  That wasn’t my point.

MY point is that the big problems with this industry isn’t all wrapped up in the fact that there aren’t enough live musicians.  You totally ignored the fact that even the groups WITH bands aren’t pulling in the crowds.  Our BIGGEST artist out there today (EHSSQ) doesn’t even have a PIANO PLAYER.  Explain that to me!  The Martins, in their heyday, never used a live musician.

Can you name me 2 or more groups today (not including Gaither) that have a full-time band and CONSISTENTLY pull in more than 500 people every date?  Also - please tell me what SG artists were sharing the stage with major country acts?  I really want to know who these acts are, because for my own knowledge I want to know.

Last year, at the CMA’s - Josh Turner (one of country’s hottest male acts out right now) - sang to a TRACK during his performance.  Not one live performer at one of country music’s biggest events.

OK, I’ll bite.  Suppose every group today adopted a band.  Now what’s our next step?  We’ve solved your big problem.  Where do we go from there?  People still aren’t coming out, because the heart of the issue is NOT bands.  It goes much deeper.

Now what do we do?  Let’s move past the band issue for once and discuss something else.  We can’t solve the band issue until we start making more

Family Man you are not going to get through to anyone here.
Very few here understand that a live performance means more than just taking the music from their CD taking their voices off and then singing to it does not make a great live performance. I have tried and others have tried to point this out with NO success.
Its not even worth the typing anymore.
I have been called ignorant and a legend in my own mind for the trouble.

You are trying to swim up Niagara Falls here!!!

Eddie

[quote author=“Deon Unthank” date=“1195989496]

#2- We STILL are trying to get our younger fans from CCM instead of Country.
Country has forever been called our cousin. They already like our chord structure, harmonies, and vocals. Why are we so determined to go after an audience that will never like what we are doing. It would be like the Country artists trying to get Rock fans to listen to their product. It just ain’t going to happen.

We do have some of the best vocals in any genre.

First of all, I agree that we have some of the best vocals. However, I disagree with your point to some extent, and here’s why.

To me, southern gospel is very diverse, perhaps even too diverse. Try defining SG, and you run into a major problem. SG is much more diverse tthan Christian Rock or country western. CCM is divded into AC, rock, and Inspo. Whereas with SG, it is all lumped under the label “southern gospel”. And even some SG artists are relatively diverse, and not just because of member changes. So with all due respect, your assessment is rather simplistic to me. It would be hard for country artists to get rock fans to listen to them, but one major difference is that SG is much broader in scope than either of those genres, so the potential fan base is greater.

So as not to offend you or anyone else, what I mean is this: Southern Gospel is about much more than just harmony, chords and structure. There are other variables, including melody, instrumentation, and tempo. And all of these can vary widely.  Listen to SG in the late 80s and especially the 90s, and some of it has a very inspo sound. What do you think: does “Midnight Cry” sound more like a country song, or an inspirational song? And that is quite possibly the most famous SG song ever recorded, besides the old standards. But it isn’t just that. Songs by the Talleys are at times the same way, and several other groups had inspirational sounds in the 90s (to me), at least in some of there songs. Some examples of inspirational songs by SG artists are “Friend of Mine” and “Wish You were Here” by the Kingsmen, and on their album “Pressed Down, Shaken Together, Running Over”, Gold City did a song called “I’ll Just Praise You”, which has a very inspirational sound. And One Scarred Hand sounds Inspirational to me also. The Greenes Also had several Inspo sounding songs when Amy Lambert was with them, including “Miracle in Me”, “Jesus’s Rocking Chair”, and “In the Twinkling of an Eye”.

And I might be totally out to lunch on this, but to me, the Perry Sisters and Point of Grace both used very similar vocals. It almost seems that the only noticeable difference between the two groups’ vocals is that the Perry Sisters had southern accents, and a smaller range. And then there are the soloists, like Ivan Parker and Kirk Talley Especially, who have had very inspirational sounds. “I Choose” by IP is, to me, about as Inspo as any SG song could be. Also, from what I know, the original Talleys had a very inspirational sound also, and “He is Here” won the Dove award for Best Christian Song in 1992.

I said all that to say this: SG is not restricted to drawing fans to country music. I might not do well with Christian Rock or AC, but at least the inspo crowd would be worth targeting. And even the AC crowd might have some potential, since some of that music is based more on vocals than instrumentation.

Eddie Estes - 26 November 2007 06:02 PM

Family Man you are not going to get through to anyone here.
Very few here understand that a live performance means more than just taking the music from their CD taking their voices off and then singing to it does not make a great live performance. I have tried and others have tried to point this out with NO success.
Its not even worth the typing anymore.
I have been called ignorant and a legend in my own mind for the trouble.

You are trying to swim up Niagara Falls here!!!

Eddie

UGH.  Guys - why does this have to turn into a thread about bands.  The problem with the industry is not solely because of a lack of musicians.  It’s a multitude of things - and until you all realize that - you’re never going to get anywhere.

Brother - 25 November 2007 08:58 AM

I think I see your point.  It is as if we are a great big SGM club and we don’t understand why others don’t want to be in our club.  I think this point was originally made by Nick Bruno in one of his articles.

I do agree with Deon (don’t know how to do the double quote thing) a fan base we are not reaching is Christians that listen to country.  This may not have to do with chord structure and vocal stylings but partially a generational problem which is why CCM sells.  My daughter listens to country but can not stand SGM which is Dad’s music.

But a greater problem is that as she matures and can overcome the above stated issue our local SGM station is still being programed for a radio station in podunk nowhere instead of up beat well arranged well sang well promoted SGM with a good DJ in Dallas/Fort Worth.  That is where the SGM club manifests.  The same request, same corney jokes, the same local artist and not one ounce of marketability of SGM to new listeners.

I agree with your last paragraph in essence, (though I wouldn’t put it so strongly).  As I have said, the primary problem is marketing (except I don’t think up beat songs are absolutely necessary,and it would be disastrous to eliminate slow SG songs). Perhaps the single greatest problem with SG is marketing, as manifested by the radio situation. If younger people could hear SG delivered by people who seem to be like them, perhaps they would realize that it’s okay for them to enjoy SG.

OK Chris, we’ll leave bands out of it.  Once again, since you asked I’ll say again what I have said on other threads are problem areas.

In no particular order:

*  Lack of multimedia, lighting, and concert quality sound systems.
*  Lack of entertainment value in the pros.
*  Pro groups accepting the status quo and refusing to raise the bar.  Sure EHSS are fun live, but listen to their CDs.  Status quo.
*  Lack of tours.  We take 250 dates a year to survive and brag about it.
*  Lack of great lyrical songs because the best songwriters aren’t going to pitch great songs and get paid what our mechanicals bring in.
*  Lack of national TV exposure except for Gaither.
*  Radio is too influenced by promoters and labels to get outside the box.  Labels are going to play it conservative.  Somebody needs to play cutting edge groups and leave everything else alone and give it some time to build a base.
*  Labels don’t have A&R;people actively seeking new and fresh talent.  They wait in their offices for an established group to come to them or for a new comer with $20,000.  Broke kids with talent don’t have a chance in this industry.

Will you comment on these Chris?